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2003.5.28 講座現場實錄

Discussant: Nemura Naomi

Nemura的回應(Ito口述)

        第一次讀到有關臺灣的色情受到日本生產色情的影響,但是訝異作者竟然是用正面的方式看日本的輸出。反思這個訝異的回應,我覺得是因為:有關日本男人如何看色情多半是在反色情的論述中,認為色情的內容都是貶抑女人的。不過這也不是沒道理。在地下錄影帶中多得是強暴、暴力、毆打的場面,女人都是受害者;在正版的色情錄影帶中也充斥類似劇情,甚至還有拍攝女子監獄中的女同性戀或被警衛強暴的場面;就連民間租的錄影帶也是很多強暴、綁架、監禁女人的劇情。這些例子顯示色情內容多是女人的受制臣服,男女觀眾看的都是這些。固然影像有不同意義空間,但是很難說男人會在這些色情片中看到女性情慾能動性。

1980年代開始,當日本女人開始在公共領域中有位置時才開始出現女性情慾能動的說法,但是同時卻開始出現兒童色情圖像,這種共時性值得我們思考。1999年兒童色情在日本被立法視為非法,但是網際網路上還是很多,而且常常掩蓋在正常圖像之下。我曾和學生在夏令營中看過那些強暴的錄影帶,大家都不喜歡,有些人還看不下去,連其中手淫的場面都不滿意,因為好像是做給人家看,而不是為自己而做,因此對這些影帶沒有正面形象。再加上日常生活中火車上的怪手亂摸以及家庭暴力,這些令人厭惡的事情和影像中對於女人的貶抑顯然是有關係的。

日本雖有女人自製的色情,這種店中甚至拒斥男客,但是對整個市場衝擊不大。顯然男女的色情世界是隔絕的,在生產和消費上都是兩個世界,而且不平等,而反色情論述所針對的就是男性主導的這些色情。

問題一:臺灣的色情市場是否有男女隔絕的現象?男人到底消費哪些影像劇情?是不是也有暴力強暴等內容?

我並不反對能動性的說法,這是個必要,因為可以比法律更為快速的改變男性中心的色情文化。因此我們需要想如何把這些有顛覆力的色情放到男性主導的色情主流中。

在文化上,色情領域或有男女分界的趨勢,但是在另外一些文化領域中卻出現了一些越界的跡象。例如俄國團體t.A.T.u的歌中便有女同志的性,歐洲還因此禁演他們的錄影帶,濱崎步的最新廣告也有雙重影像自吻的場面。這些在邊界地帶既不色情又接近色情的呈現方式,是男女都可同時享受的,是個值得注意的發展。

問題二:臺灣有沒有這種邊界的曖昧呈現方式?會不會因此受到規範?

有關管理和控制方面,論文中說保守的女性主義用反色情論述來管理新的女性情慾能動性,會不會事實上是保守人士用女性主義語言來進行管控,而不是女性主義本身如何。

在日本,保守女性團體是有,但是影響力不大,女性主義者讀DworkinMcKinnon,但是並不和保守女性團體接合。這兩種人其實影響力都不大。

真正有力量的是性產業和媒體,因為他們的利潤大到無人可以影響他們或者讓他們嘗試不同的做法。可惜的是,那些男性的自由主義者們卻又不覺得性別是個重要的分析因素,因此也沒有對性產業產生壓力。

問題三:臺灣的色情管理力量很強,民間有無抗拒的力量?特別是來自男性自由主義份子?

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Jo Ho』s response:

I would like to thank Nemura Sensei for her careful reading of my paper as well as her insightful discussions.  Let me answer her three questions as follows:

I agree that upon first sight and viewed in isolated shots, many pornographic scenes will seem utterly shocking and unacceptable for viewers, just as gay romances seemed distasteful to many people in the past.  The natural response is: such scenes will impact negatively on our society.  But I think we need to bear in mind several important points.  First of all, there is a long complicated detour between images and reality.  Pornographic images work mostly on our unconscious desires, the operations of which we are only beginning to explore.  To draw a straight line between images and reality is to over-exaggerate the power of images and deny the obvious power of the subject to manipulate such images, which brings me to the second point.  If we begin with the belief that all pornography is degrading to women and is a shameful, disgusting thing, then we have foreclosed on ever finding out how men and women really see or feel while viewing pornography.  I know of too many women who enjoy and make good use of existing, albeit often times sexist, pornography.  Does that mean they will tolerate all kind of subjugation in real life?  Absolutely not.  In fact, such sexually experienced women often demonstrate more power to assert themselves against subjugation than the sexually timid women.  On the other hand, I know of too many men who do not enjoy certain kinds of pornography, the same way as you responded to those images.  Incidentally, have you ever wondered what kind of subject position a viewer might assume while watching porn?  I am afraid it does not follow rigid gender lines.  Sometimes women imagine themselves as the rapist in the scene, and men imagine themselves as the rape victim, and most often people switch from one role to other roles during the process.  But if we maintain a morally righteous attitude toward porn and decree that viewing pornography is a shameful conduct, then we will never know the truth about our own fantasies, our own fears, our own enjoyment, etc.  Having said that, I can answer Nemura Sensei this way, I think a clear gender division between porn for men and porn for women is probably impossible to assert, not until we have created a social milieu in which people are free to assert their fondness for sexually explicit materials.

By the way, I am not really interested in finding out what men are watching.  I am more interested in finding out what women are watching and how they manage their sexualities.  I don』t think it is feminism』s job to reform men and make them become nice family men.  I am more interested in the many ways that women are transforming, empowering themselves.  And in that respect, I think the meaning of porn is contestable and can be manipulated to women』s advantage.

As to Nemura Sensei』s second question, whether there are similarly subversive images that border pornography in Taiwanese popular culture, of course there are.  And sometimes they suffer criticism too.  But in recent years, with the development of the LGBT movement, more and more sexually marginal materials are becoming available.  The interesting thing is, marginal sexualities often find erotic content in the most unlikely places.  For example, many gays have found useful material while watching propaganda films about life in the military.  On the other hand, a lot of pornographic materials are quite subversive themselves as they expose the erotic possibilities in highly serious cultural materials.  We don』t have to look very far for subversive elements.

As to the third question concerning the sex industry and our resistance to it.  I don』t think our relation to porn is necessarily that of 「resistance」 or 「antagonism.」  As a sexual subject, I would like to see how I can better 「manipulate」 it.  Porn industry, like any other industry, will have to take into consideration the opinions of its customers.  Since there are so many women who are into enjoying porn, the reason they have not had an impact on the industry is because they have not been able to make their presence known.  If we continue to hold such self-righteous attitudes against porn, it is unlikely women will want to speak up.  In other words, to have a positive influence on the porn industry, we have to help women express what they like or want to see in porn, and that calls for a very different attitude toward porn, which we have to work hard to foster.  How do male liberals in Taiwan feel toward the porn industry?  Some have written about it along the lines of freedom of speech, but not much in social action.  But I know for sure what conservative women are doing to the porn industry: they are creating laws to wipe out sexually explicit materials and their production, thus making it all the more difficult for the development of a sex-positive environment.

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Q & A:

1.  In Taiwan, is the rating system targeted at sex or does it include violence too?

A: Mostly against the so-called obscenities in pornography; namely, scenes that expose genitals or nipples.  It』s funny how the police and the justices are hooked unto those specific spots.  Violence is tolerated unless it gets too graphic.

2.  In Japan, there is a huge difference in sexual attitudes between people who were born in the 1960s and the later generations.  The transformation seems to have taken place in the 1980s.  Is there such a generation difference in Taiwan too?  Is it more open after the lifting of martial law in 1987?

A: Taiwan has also seen a period of dramatic transformation in the 1980s when extra-marital affairs became obvious and love motels are established on every corner in the city, not to mention a host of other emergent sexual phenomena.  But nobody put a name on it; people only worried abou it.  It was the sex radicals like me who first called it a sex revolution and proposed liberatory directions for it.  Is the society freer after the lifting of the martial law?  Well, yes and no.  Yes, because there is now more freedom of speech.  But no, because that freedom does not apply to sexual speech or sexual expressions.  In fact, there are now more laws regulating people』s sexual expression than any time in the history of Taiwan.

3.  Is there a local porn industry in Taiwan?

A: Not really.  Taiwan is famous for copycatting cultural materials, and we have done very well with pornographic materials imported from Japan and the US too.  Last month, we had our so-called the first local AV stars releasing their work and they were arrested within a few days.

4.  Are all regulations of porn materials to be considered the repression of sexual agency?  You mentioned that porn has been instrumental in helping gays and lesbians assert their identities.  How does that work?

A: Let me answer by making this point.  You may think of pornography as this terrible, evil, worthless thing that we should eradicate from the face of this earth.  But for those people who value or prioritize their sexual identities, pornography is their cultural heritage, however pale an image it may be for the real people who live those practices and desires.  To ban pornography is to deprive them of the only cultural site where they can find some vague reflections and images of themselves.  If you think the culture of aborigine tribes are sacred and should be preserved, you probably need to show the same kind of respect to the cultural artifacts of sexually marginal people too.  And if you find that hard to accept, perhaps you really do not know enough about what sexual identities mean after all.  Most of the time, people think about pornography in terms of the gender oppression that it involves, but I think now it's time to also think about the sexual deprivation that results from continued stigmatization and criminalization of sexually explicit materials.  By sexual deprivation I mean the lack of information, lack of access, lack of experience, lack of discussion and exchange in regard to sexual matters.  And for us women, that kind of deprivation is a lived reality.  As such, the continued criminalization of porn should be seriously reconsidered by feminists as well as by women in general.

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