2003.6.4 講座現場實錄

Discussant: Nozomi Mizushima

1.   「Wisdom」 of sex workers

Skills and tactics of sex workers vary according to their specialization, individual personality and physical characteristics, the choices of service that is acceptable to them.  I was impressed that sex workers in both Japan and Taiwan have made efforts in advancing their skills and passed them on through generations.

Skills in 「Fashion Health」 (no Honban--intercourse) include: to be more 「actively」 engaged by kissing and licking customer's entire body in order to avoid and minimize fingering in vagina; to try to avoid fellatio that is conducted mainly without wearing condom thus increasing the risk of STD; to increase the use of thighs and the use of 「hand-job」 using gel in order to decrease the risk of STD yet increasing pleasure of customer; to use more lotion and increase the amount of saliva during the service of fellatio so that bacteria can be washed away and to increase customer's pleasure.

Skills in individual prostitution, 「delivery health」 (with intercourse) include: to try to start intercourse wearing condom as soon as possible in order to avoid fellatio during which it is often difficult to use condom; to try to prolong service using lotion in order to minimize the time on fellatio and penis inserting; to place an internal use medical capsule that contains jell in vagina in prior to service so that during service the jell comes out of the dissolving capsule, deceiving the customer that the sex worker is being 「wet.」 The sex worker can satisfy the customer, at the same time, protecting her vagina from being hurt. 

2.   Anti-state-regulated-prostitution in Taipei

Chen Shui-bian』s proposal to abolish state-regulated prostitution is said to have been modeled after Japan』s Anti-Prostitution Law.  In the movement in creating Anti-Prostitution Law in Japan, anti-prostitution women activists Participated.  Therefore, Japan played some role in anti- state-regulated prostitution movement or 「clean-up」 in Taipei.

Question: When you organized a public forum with prostitutes and members of COWAS to gain understanding among middle class women such as housewives and teachers, what were the reactions of these women?  Were there any changes?  Did the movement spread?

3.   View of anti-sex work feminists

The argument that regards sex workers as victims/exploited is based on the assumption that customers, meaning men, are enemies.  It seems that this view cannot be changed even in the face of positive understanding of the work by sex workers.  The view further develops into thinking that sex workers are either victims by the enemy or allies of the enemy.  This perception only looks at men.  Isn』t this male-centered way of thinking?

It is pointed out that anti-sex work feminists support 「Good wife, wise mother」 idea or nationalism.  Similar situation is observed in Japan, too.  What is called for to feminists to change this situation within feminism?  What should feminists do?

4.   This argument is necessary for feminists not for sex workers.

Many sex workers do not expect feminists to understand or save them.  Discussion on sex work is needed for feminists (feminism) to contemplate ways to achieve not only gender liberation but also sex liberation. 

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Jo Ho』s response:

I am most grateful for Mizushima San』s insights on the wisdom of prostitutes.  Obviously we can work together and discovered more of these 「subjugated knowledges」 that Foucault referred to when he talked about the kind of knowledge that empowers the individual against institutionalized knowledge/power formations. 

In our experience struggling alongside the Taipei prostitutes, we have time and again run into indignant and morally righteous women who had only room to preach but little room to listen.  So change is limited and very slow in coming.  The biggest difference I have observed is in the self-empowerment of the prostitutes themselves, who have now overcome whatever shame they had once felt and are carrying on with their daily lives with more ease.  Taiwan has never seen prostitutes organized for human rights or work rights and their persistence and perseverance was what won the citizens over.  It is undeniable that sympathy or pity made up a major part of the support of Taipei citizens, but I think the struggles have set a good example for sex workers of the world.

Mizushima San asks: what should we do to change feminists within feminism?  I don』t have an answer for that.  Because what has been most obvious in this series of struggles is the changed position of mainstream feminists.  They are now policy makers, women with real political power, but not the kind of power that makes more room for different kinds of women, but the kind of power that demands a uniformed look and style of life from all women.  In the past five years, they have succeeded in instituting more laws to regulate gender/sexuality than all of Taiwan』s history put together.  We of course wanted to debate them on such matters.  I remember pleading with one of the anti-sex-work NGOs for an opportunity to discuss such issues among feminists groups before turning it into a media issue.  The leader of that women』s NGO replied bluntly: 「We don』t want to talk.  Let』s just see who has more muscle.」  At that moment, I realized that we did not have any muscle while they had the police, the city government, the law, etc.  And all we have is persevering resistance.  This is a new kind of political power, a power that we are still struggling to resist.

Mizushima San says that we should contemplate ways to achieve not only gender liberation but also sex liberation.  I am afraid such good-woman feminists will go for gender liberation, for gender-wise, they stand to gain from emphasizing gender oppression.  But I don』t think they will go for sex liberation, for, as good women, they have no advantage on this front.  They lack interest as well as experience in this area.  As such, they of course will avoid sex liberation.  In that sense, the choice of going for gender liberation or sex liberation is a matter of who will gain more advantage, and who will hold leadership in the women』s movement.

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Q & A

1.  In your lecture, you mentioned that Taiwan』s national-state building project is helped by the international gender analytic.  In Taiwan』s case, is state control strengthened by the abolition of sex work?

A:  I am sorry to say, 「Yes, the state has been helped by the abolition move.」  I think in three important ways.  First of all, nation-state building in our date and age entails image-building, and holding an abolition stance on the issue of sex work gives the state a righteous image through which the state can more legitimately use its power to exercise its control.  It also looks good to the international community to display the result of the state』s obscenity sweeps.  Secondly, nation-state building is also consensus building.  With issues such as abolition of sex work or other stigmatized practices, rigid state policies can usually sail without much contention.  That consensus is achieved through the threatening force of stigma.  Who dare to stand up against obscenity sweeps?  Thirdly, nation-state building is also legal reconstruction.  And the conservative groups』 desire to abolish sex work has certainly helped the stage reorganize or rationalize its legal structure so that more and more areas of control now come under the auspice of the law, and that certainly contributes to the consolidation of state rule.

2.  How do sex workers view their clients?  Aren』t there a lot of violence that take place in transactions?

A:  Well, sex workers view their clients in very many different ways, depending on the situation, the mood, the person, and a lot of other contingent factors.  Some clients develop into old time friends, some clients become lovers—at least for a while, some clients are avoided at all costs.  There is no uniform meaning to the word 「clients.」  As to the presence of violence, well, I think there are probably more cases of violence in marriage and other intimate relationship than in sex work, since domestic violence is usually overlooked or tolerated.  If sex work is more dangerous than other lines of work or other types of relationships, it』s probably because the continued illegality of sex work makes it vulnerable to abuse.  When Taipei』s legal prostitution was still in place, the sex worker could enjoy police protection when violence took place.  It goes to show violence is not innate to sex work.

3.  In your lecture, you included a lot of forms of work that I would not consider 「sex work.」  Why do you include them in sex work?

A:  I think the question presumes that sex work involves only sexual intercourse.  In other words, if it does not involve sexual intercourse, then it is not sex work.  This is an oversimplified understanding of sex and of sex work in today』s historical context.  Perhaps in a reproduction-oriented social context, penetration makes up all of sex.  But we live in an age when sex has diversified into a lot of different activities.  Also, in regard to sex work, modern forms of sex work are increasingly flirtation-oriented interaction.  In Taiwan, right now, the newest form of sex work is lap-dance, in which the sex worker and her customers assume a position and an activity that in everyway looks and sounds like sexual intercourse but without the intercourse part.  Still, the interaction is sexual through and through.  Take the telephone sex clubs as another example.  Is that sex work or not?  By the penetration definition, it is not.  The sex worker does not even meet her client.  But can you truly say it is not sex work?  I think it really depends on whether you adopt the modern conception of sex or not.

4.  You talk about agency of sex workers, but isn』t that agency conditioned by the social structure?  We really cannot overlook the important force of socio-economic structuring.

A:  This is a good question.  I think the underlying assumption is that sex workers are situated in such a lop-sided power structure that any agency claimed by them is to be discredited.  Well, let me say that to pit social structure and subject/agency against each other is itself a gross characterization.  To begin with, social structure is not a piece of iron that stays the same.  History has already shown social structure being changed repeatedly by collective action.  If not, we would still be living under totalitarian regimes.  On the other hand, agency/subjectivity is of course a product of the social-historical context.  Nobody truly believes that by his individual agency he would be able to turn the world upside down.  (Not unless you are Hitler or some other power-crazy conceit.)  But we are never truly and completely constrained by the social structure.  If not, then we would never find opposition forces in authoritarian rule.  We would all be conditioned to be docile citizens.  So I think the opposition between social structure and individual is a false one.  After all, what is social structure, if not the collectivity of us individual subjects organized in a certain form?  Society is not a structure out there, beyond us.  We ARE the society.  And if we the individual subjects have changed and demonstrate a new agency, who can say that the social structure is still the same?

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