2003.7.4 講座現場實錄Discussant： Junko Mitsuhashi
I will make my comments on and pose questions to Prof. Ho』s lecture on the issue of transgender in Taiwan from a viewpoint of transgender in Japan. Unfortunately, however, until very recently the issue of transgender was ignored in the field of gender/sexuality research. Except a few accounts of personal history, research on transgender community has just begun. Therefore, I apologize, in advance, that I am not able to make comments that is academically effective because of the lack of accumulation of research. Argument 1. The current situation in Taiwan that approval of SRS divided the transgendered in two groups; GID and others. While GID gained legitimacy and certain protection in the society, non-GID transgendered are facing even more difficult situation. This is exactly what is going on in Japan. Because the approval of SRS in Japan was realized 10 years later than Taiwan, we are witnessing the same situation little later than in Taiwan. I think analysis on the Taiwanese society has deep implication for the future of the Japanese society. It should be more carefully scrutinized that the expansion of the concept of GID reduced the incomprehensive forms of gender to an understandable polarization of men and women and did not mitigate the rigid two-gender (men and women). Application of stereotypical gender norms in diagnosing GID is a clear example of that. (For example, a middle-aged male physician tells to a Male-to-Female TG (MTFTG) that she now looks more feminine when she wears a mini skirt.) Question 1. In Japan, the introduction of the medical concept of GID was done without involving existing commercial TGs (hostesses, show business, sex work) and TG community, and now caused various problems such as reproduction of discrimination. In Taiwan, what was the presence of TGs like before GID? What was the attitude of those who introduced GID towards TGs? Argument 2 It is important to understand misogyny underlies hate crimes against MTFTG. At Japanese schools, sissy boys have much harder time than boyish girls. Sexual violence against women can be severely accused, yet sexual violence against feminine male is often trivialized as something they deserve. In Japan, since there has not been a case of widely reported hate crime against MTFTC (there have been numerous unreported cases), we do not know how feminists would react to one. Maybe fortunately, since feminists in Japan have not paid much attention to (or almost ignored) the presence of MTFTG, at this point, no visible conflict has been there. Question 2. After the tragedies of April 20, 2000 and May 7, 2003, was there any movement among feminists in Taiwan of remorse about their own attitude towards MTFTG? Or has MTFTG been able to put forward effective counter arguments against the feminists』 overvaluing of biological sex? Argument 3 It is important to understand about the relationship between Gay & Lesbian and TG: Machismo in the gay community oppresses sissy gays (「ladies」-type and female dressing gays), MTFTG, and lesbians who are, in terms of their biological sex, women. This makes L-G-B-T alliance difficult. Another attribution to the difficulty in mutual understanding between TG and G&L is strong tendency among lesbian and gays of the recognition of gender based on their biological sex. Transgenders, too, need to overcome internalized gender consciousness, patriarchal machismo observed among FTMTG, and excessive dependency on male often seen among MTFTG. Question 3. In Japan, after 1970』s, the separation between the gay community and MTFTG community increased, and now these two are almost independent from each other. (On the other hand, the separation between lesbian community and FTMTG community lasted longer). What are the situations like in Taiwan on this issue? Argument 4 Transcending gender/sexuality includes a vertical aspect, meaning upward and downward social mobility, too, in addition to horizontal mobilization between men and women, in the context in which difference in social status between men and women exist. Within this context, MTF and FTM can be accepted differently in society. Question 4. Are there differences in the general public between views on MTF and view on FTM? If there is, could you present the reasons? Question 5. How do Confucian doctrines in Taiwan view the transgendered? Conclusion In Japan, finally there published a book on transgender, 「Transgenderism declaration」 (Izumi Yonezawa, 2000). Her selected writings are listed by 5 categories: 1. Concept of transgender and the underlying structural understanding of 「sex」; 2. Literature review on transgender; 3. The history of transgender in Japan; 4. Transgender and education; 5. Research on the transgender community. The point demonstrated by Prof. Ho that the efforts of transgender not only reconstruct our body/identity but it also has a possibility of reconstructing female gender resonate my own thinking that transgender can work as catalyst to illuminate the problematic of the traditional dichotomy of men and women developed after modernization. Her lecture bears importance and implication in thinking the social role of transgender in the near future. ＊
＊ ＊ ＊ ＊ ＊ Jo Ho's Response:I am very honored to have Mitsuhashi Sensei comment on my paper, and I welcome her questions so that we can extend discussions of gender along transgendered lines. To answer her first question about the pre-history of TG presence in Taiwan, whatever it was like before, we could only find traces of it in hindsight. When sex change surgery was not a reality yet, the obviously transgendered were mostly taken to be homosexuals because one of the most popular ways to understand variation in gender expression was to speculate on the person』s sexual orientation; and vice versa. In fact, at that time, homosexuality was the only term in which gender variation could be understood. Later when news got around that SRS was available in Thailand in the 1970s, TS』s suddenly became identifiable because they were the ones who would contemplate surgery as a means to fulfill their lives even though surgery costs were quite high. Still, there were many more other differently-gendered persons who did not seem to be thrilled about the availability of SRS. They were more interested in finding out how to acquire hormones so that they could further shape their bodies to match their chosen identities, but not to the extent of going through surgery. Others continued with their gender experimentations by trying out different outfits and different self-images. There were still others who did not do anything other than maintaining their seemingly contradictory identity and lives. In short, the multiplicity of transgender expressions have always far exceeded the general categories of transgender, transsexual, cross-dresser, intersexual, and transvestite, which medical professionals invented in an effort to manage such multiplicities. Matsuhashi Sensei asks about the people who introduced the concept of GID into Taiwan. Well, they included not only medical practitioners who were looking for terms to diagnose the patients in front of them, but also transsexuals who were looking for a legitimate reason to explain their behavior and their consequent need for surgery. So there is really no unified view toward TGs. Question 2: Are feminists feeling remorseful about the death of transgenders? I am sorry to say Taiwanese mainstream feminists have little time to think about transgender issues, much less feeling remorseful about the death of a few unfortunate transgenders. It took them long enough to acquiesce with gay and lesbian identities. Transgender issues, which threaten to overthrow the gender division that mainstream feminist politics has thrived upon, very likely would take much longer. As to possible counter arguments against biology-oriented views, I will say something about that when I get to question 4. Question 3. Taiwan』s gay and lesbian movement began in the 1990s without much knowledge about transgenders, even though the American LGBT movement was already a possible model. The gradual emergence of a small transgender community in 2000 was mainly helped along by none other than gender movement activists who had been thrown out of the mainstream feminist movement for their differing gender politics. Being fully aware of the limitations of such mainstream gender politics, in the past few years, these renegades have done a lot to hold the transgender group in close alliance with gay and lesbian groups, and have organized training camps to propagate LGBT concepts among marginal gender/sexualities. So far, the alliance looks quite strong. The
4th question has to do with the differing status of MTFs and FTMs.
Mitsuhashi Sensei is absolutely right in pointing out that there
are more factors affecting their status than the simple factor of
gender. Yet, besides the
usual factors such as economic power, ethnic identity, and so forth,
other factors also prove to be very significant.
Among these I have already alluded to the physical endowment of
the individual as one salient factor.
MTFs who are fortunate enough to be endowed with impeccable
beauty are quite persuasive in winning social acceptance, as attested by
the recent fame of Korean As to the question concerning Confucian values and transgender, I am afraid there is not much of Confucian values left in the Taiwanese way of life at the present. What is left, though, is a diluted familial ideology that is repeated by parents when faced with disobedient children, but to little effect. Still, as a familial ideology that reiterates traditional gender roles, generational differences, family reproductive duties, etc., it poses serious obstacles to those transgenders whose transition would be hampered by such ideals. I had already looked through Izumi Yonezawa』s new book and guessed at the content through the Kangi that I recognize in that book. I really admire Japanese transgender efforts in bringing out this important book that made many important declarations about human rights for the transgendered. Taiwan may have a small transgender movement, but we are still in the process of accumulating enough serious writings about transgender rights to make a whole book on the issue. That first book is going to be published by November this year as we welcome world-famous transgender writer Leslie Feinberg to Taiwan. Another observation I have made since being here in Tokyo is that we in Taiwan lack a transgender presence as powerful as that of Mitsuhashi Sensei. Our transgendered friends are still struggling with the closet made up of social and sexual stigma. To Izumi Yonezawa』s book and all the efforts that people like Mitsuhashi Sensei are making, we offer our most severe admiration and hope to work alongside the Japanese transgenders starting tonight. ＊
＊ ＊ ＊ ＊ ＊ Questions
from the floor: 1. You talked about drag queens and gay festivals and the criticism the queens received. Could you say something about the relationship between transgenders and the drag queens? A: It is not all that easy to tell the queens and some transgenders apart, actually, if you only look at appearances. After all, non-conforming gender identities are only beginning to be understood. Furthermore, sometimes I tend to think that the complaint of one group against another stems not just from one identity against another, but also as one style of self-representation against another. The queens are criticized for their theatricality by other gays, but some transgenders are theatrical in their self presentation too and may also receive criticism within the transgender community. As to the actual relationship between transgenders and drag queens, that is hard to say. It really depends on who you know and how you get along with one another as a person. And that relationship and connectedness need to built with a lot of interaction and communication. 2. We have witnessed a troubling phenomenon in the past decades. That is, whenever a marginal group has gained in social legitimacy, it has turned around to discriminate against those other marginal groups. How do you see this kind of situation? A: Sexual hierarchy is maintained by the ignorance, the prejudice, and the bigotry that characterize our sex-negative culture. And it is important to bear in mind that occupying a marginal and oppressed identity position does not guarantee that the subject would be free from all the prejudices and discrimination that make up the oppressive culture in which we find ourselves. It would be audacious for women to think that they are free from the influence of patriarchy and that all their thoughts and acts are free from the latter』s contamination and are thus 「politically correct.」 In other words, women (or feminists or any sexual minority) still have to reflect upon and be critical about their own thoughts and acts. The danger of identity politics is that oftentimes the stigma one bears have been so painful and so long-lasting that the subjects also took up a sense of fierce righteousness or an outrage against others that could become a terrible arrogance. I would caution that such sense of fierce righteousness needs to be directed at the existence of the hierarchy, rather than at gaining more legitimacy for yourself at the cost of other marginal sexualities. If the sexual hierarchy that Gayle Rubin talks about continues to exist, then most energy is devoted to competitions for legitimacy rather than dismantling the hierarchy itself so that all are freed from discrimination. In that sense, we really need to work to remove the hierarchy rather than only bettering our own position on the hierarchy. 3. I work with the HIV patients group. Is there anything connection between transgenders and HIV patients in Taiwan? A: So far, due to the LGBT alliance that we are trying to build in Taiwan, HIV patients groups have been friendly toward the newly emerging transgender group even though mutual understanding has not been established. The groups have rallied together for several causes and have been friendly toward each other. These days, the pressure on activism is so high that sometimes you only have time for movement activities, but not enough time to build understanding and communication. 4. You talked about embodiment of transgender. To me, that is mostly appearance, the way to dress, etc. But I think feminism has done a lot of work changing gender acts that go beyond the appearance. For example, boys can also do ballet now, thanks to feminist effort. Feminism may not pay much attention to the bodily aspects, but it has done quite a bit to open up space for conduct. What do you think? A:
Transgender identity is never simple appearance.
It is the way you carry yourself, it』s the way you manage your
life, it』s the attitude, it』s the interactive mode you adopt when
meeting someone else. I don』t think transgender presence can be reduced to
appearance only. I agree
that feminism has done a lot to challenge the gender stereotypes and
limitations, but they have left the root of gender division
unchallenged. Boys may be
able to do ballets now, thanks to the feminists, but if the boys go on
to say that they want to dress as girls all the time or that they want
sex changes, I wonder if the feminists would still maintain the same
level of supportiveness. That
is a true challenge to feminist therapists. ＊
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Thank
you very much for an interesting and precious lecture. 
transsexual pop star